Shotgun Gauges Explained: 10 vs 12 vs 16 vs 20 vs 28 vs 410. By comparison, recoil of the .450 Bushmaster and .50 Beowulf loads calculate as 19.5 ft. lbs. 4,000 BC: the wheel. The 458 SOCOM was designed for a very specific purpose. Winchester quotes muzzle velocity (MV) values for its .350 Legend loads from both 16 inch and 20 inch rifle barrels. Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3. 45 RAPTOR Rifle Cartridge. As the acronym implies (Special Operations Command), members of special operations units were unhappy with the 5.56 rounds ability to bring down the enemy quickly and with as few shots as possible in combat while using platforms such as the M4 and M16.After deliberations and experimentation, the .458 SOCOM came to be in the early 2000’s. The .450 Bushmaster can’t handle even half of that. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - 458 SOCOM vs. 450 Bushmaster vs. 50 Beowulf (Page 2 of 2) ARCHIVED; Previous Page. The .50 Beowulf uses standard .500" HANDGUN bullets....50 caliber RIFLE bullets are .510"... "...the Beowulf is not limited to only handgun bullets." The .450 Bushmaster is a product of more modern times. About AR15.COM. .350 Legend load (Generally, a KPS of 30 to 32 may be considered a threshold power level for hunting Class 3 game.) All three cartridges are solid performers and there is quite a bit of overlap in their capabilities. Note that this is a comparative system. Winchester Super-X 180 grain Power Point (PP) - BC .221. This may not be a great concern on deer and similar sized thin skinned game, because these large diameter bullets are going to deliver a lot of shock energy to the target, even if they do not always penetrate well. But great choice I'm real happy with mine. Magazine Follower 450 Bushmaster 458 SOCOM 50 Beowulf With 223 Adapter. Energy is a measure of the work a bullet can do, which in this case means powering bullet penetration and expansion. Pistol Length Upper Assemblies 7.62x39; Rifle Length Upper Assemblies 7.62x39; AR 9 9mm PCC Upper All three loads get MPBR yardage and KPS scores that are adequate (greater than 15.0) for use against Class 2 game in general. = 33.6, .350 Legend, Win. Note that all five loads, sighted-in for +/- 3 inch MPBR, shoot right at three inches high at 100 yards. 300 grain FTX: KPS at 100 yds. 270 vs 308: Which One Should You Hunt With? In such situations, there's a lot to be said for having a full magazine of instant-follow-up semi-auto heavy-bullet shots at your disposal. These two are probably more similar than different, but the devil is in the details. Here are the 100, MPBR (nearest five yard increment) and 250 yard trajectory figures in inches, for each load, sighted-in for a +/- 3 inch MPBR, computed for a scope mounted 1.5 inches over the bore. Briefly, here are the key results. (Formerly 'shotguns only,' I believe, for deer hunting.)". The .458 SOCOM guy Joined Feb 2001; Posts 3461; EE Offline; TX, USA. Copyright 2019 by Gary Zinn and/or chuckhawks.com. Thanks guys, I am going to grab the .450 Bushmaster upper. Results are in descending order of MPBR. AR15.COM is the world’s largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. 100-150 yards would be a unusual long shot for my hunting situations. Presently, the .350 Legend, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf are the only short (1.8 inches or shorter) commercial straight wall rifle cartridges, so are of prime interest to those who hunt in the jurisdictions noted above, plus anyone who may be interested in hunting with an AR-15 rifle chambered in a medium or large bore cartridge. This is why I preach the, "never take a shot beyond MPBR, and closer is always better" doctrine. Its mostly just something to mess with. This leads to the issue of rifle platforms for the cartridge. In this article, the .350 Legend is evaluated against the .450 Bushmaster and .50 Beowulf. Any short-action platform that handles the .223 Remington can be easily reworked to handle the .350 Legend cartridge. Not the .450 SOCOM. Something with power that I can hunt deer and pigs. I feel that a +/- 3-inch MPBR is appropriate for rifles used to hunt Class 2 game, including the cartridges being evaluated here. Let’s look at the key differences: Power One of the biggest arguments for the .458 SOCOM is the ability to handle up to 600-grain. I would not trust the penetration of those bullets on large animals at distances much beyond 100 yards. Here are the velocity in feet-per-second (fps) and energy in foot-pounds (ft. To me, the trajectory data indicate that taking hunting shots at ranges of 200 yards or more would be both irresponsible and futile with any of these loads. Bushmaster and hornady teamed up for the 450 and 450 ammo is cheaper and easier to find. Some straight wall handgun cartridges are chambered in rifles, notably the .357 Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum, .460 and .500 S&W Magnums. I have a 16" 450 and I shoot clover leafs all day at 100 with the hornady factory ammo and have dropped every whitetail where it stood. These, though, are powerful handgun cartridges that have found something of a second home in rifles, rather than being designed from the ground up as rifle cartridges. Winchester has announced that the Winchester XPR bolt action rifle will be chambered in .350 Legend. We estimate a rifle cartridge should generate a KPS of at least 12.5 at the range the bullet impacts to be a viable hunting cartridge for common Class 2 game, up to roughly 150 - 175 pounds (e.g., deer and pronghorn), while a KPS of 15.0 gives a margin of killing power for larger Class 2 game (up to 300 pounds). Low extended range velocity of these loads also works against both penetration and bullet expansion. (The .458 SOCOM is not included in this comparison, because its case is not straight walled.). Winchester touts the .350 Legend as "designed for deer hunting out to 250 yards." Lever action rifles, such as the Winchester Model 94, Marlin Model 336 and Henry Lever Action .30-30, carry and mount well and cycle fast when more than a single shot is needed. 4.6 average based on 21 product ratings. The 45–70 has been a popular cartridge for use against the great bears even in the black powder days. This comparison only matters depending on which types of games you are focusing on. = 54.1; KPS at 175 yds. In truth it probably doesn't matter which I pick either now that I think about it. The 45 RAPTOR is designed to shoot bullets ranging from 160 grains up to 395 grains giving end users a wide range of projectile options to meet their specific requirements. i don't have either but i do have a 458 socom. I found an article by Gary Zinn that makes a pretty good case why the 350 Legend is better for Whitetails and larger game than the 450 … For old school deer hunters (like me) the lever action is perhaps the best all-around platform for a hunting cartridge. I think I am leaing towards the the .450 Bushmaster, I have a good supply of .452/.451 bullets, and there are more factory ammo options available if needed. Compared: Winchester .350 Legend, .450 Bushmaster and .50 Beowulf. Not only is it generally consistent with results in the field, it can be used to compare any load at any range and includes the factors of energy at impact (which includes velocity), SD and cross-sectional area in an easy to use formula to arrive at a Killing Power Score (KPS) for a given load at a given distance, via the formula: KPS at "y" yards (you pick the yardage) = (impact energy at y yards) x (sectional density) x (cross-section area), or simply: KPS @ y = E @ y x SD x A, (Cross-section areas are .1001 sq. This high-intensity MAP is no problem with bolt action and AR designs, but a lever rifle chambered in .350 Legend should have a front-locking bolt, such as the Browning BLR and Henry Long Ranger designs. AR thumper .450 Bushmaster Vs. .50 Beowulf, Re: AR thumper .450 Bushmaster Vs. .50 Beowulf. .450 Bushmaster, Hornady 250 grain FTX: 191 / 164, .350 Legend, Winchester 180 grain PP: 185 / 158, .500 Beowulf, Hornady 300 grain FTX: 174 / 149, .450 Bushmaster, Hdy. One of the best, in terms of positive correlation with reality, has proven to be the G&S Online Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula. Of course it will. Various systems have been created to estimate the killing power of rifle cartridges, with varying results in terms of accuracy. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - 458 socom vs 450 bushmaster vs 50 beowulf??? 250 grain FTX: +3.0" (100), -2.8" (190), -13.7" (250), .350 Legend, Win. The purpose of these comparisons was to make a thorough evaluation of how the .350 Legend stacks up in performance against two cartridges long proven to be effective and efficient at taking deer and similar game animals. for .357 inch, .452 inch, and .500 inch diameter bullets, respectively.). The most significant thing about these numbers is that trajectory of all loads deteriorates quickly at ranges beyond 200 yards, with bullet drop at 250 yards roughly three to four times that at 200 yards, for all loads. That being said. Why not consider the .458 SOCOM too? = 54.1; KPS at 175 yds. = 40.0, .450 Bushmaster, Hdy. Page / 2 Next Page. These numbers clearly show that the Legend is a powder puff, compared with the heavy recoiling .45- and .50- caliber cartridges. = 22.6; KPS at 185 yds. For all the .450 Bushmaster’s assets, economic shooting isn’t one of them. Sectional density (SD) is the ratio of a bullet's weight in pounds to the square of its diameter in inches. In the article noted above, Chuck Hawks explained the background and importance of the characteristics of these cartridges, as follows. Our KPS parameters and results assume vital area hits, of course. My argument is that a prudent and responsible hunter should never attempt a shot at a game animal beyond the MPBR of the cartridge/load being used (and closer is always better). The characteristics compared include velocity and energy, maximum point blank range and far zero, trajectory, sectional density, killing power and recoil. Then I, with helpful editorial support from Chuck, compared the .30-30 Winchester and the .350 Legend and the .35 Remington and the .350 Legend. 180 grain PP: KPS at 100 yds. Rifle cartridges with straight wall cases within the length range specified are not an everyday commodity. .450 Bushmaster load 450 bushmaster is a saami spec round. The cartridge was a joint development between Hornady and Bushmaster, and it was designed with a rebated rim that seats on the mouth of the cartridge. KPS values at the five yard increment closest to each load MPBR are included, to document the power of the loads near the longest range at which a responsible hunter should use them. These three cartridges are birds of a feather, in that they are straight wall case designs, sized to function in AR-15 rifle platforms. “…hunters desiring a big bore AR…have three mainstream choices: the .450 Bushmaster, the .458 SOCOM, and the .50 Beowulf. Share - Magazine Follower 450 Bushmaster 458 SOCOM 50 Beowulf With 223 Adapter. Here at Guns and Shooting Online, we have made something of a cottage industry of evaluating the performance of the recently introduced .350 Legend cartridge, compared with other relevant cartridges. These loads should be fully Class 2 capable out to their MPBR distances. I worked the numbers for a 250 grain.450 Bushmaster load, a 300 grain.458 SOCOM load and a 325 grain.50 Beowulf load. I have local deal available for either the .450 Bushmaster or the .50 Beowulf. I crumpled an Antelope into a pile of Jello at 200 yards with it last fall using the factory 334 gr. CMMG has announced an AR15 carbine (with a 16 inch barrel) in the cartridge, plus 5 and 10 round magazines. It is also the most important factor when computing kinetic energy. (See Are AR-15 Type Cartridges Good for Hunting Deer?). of recoil in an eight pound field weight rifle. Not the .450 SOCOM. and 23.1 ft. Bullet placement is the most important factor in achieving quick, humane kills, so anything that makes hitting easier is desirable. The negative is ammo/brass supply. Conversely, the abuse the Bushmaster and Beowulf heap on the shooter is not well rewarded by downrange performance. I am looking at getting a new big bore upper for my AR15, either 450 bushmaster or 50 Beowulf. Are AR-15 Type Cartridges Good for Hunting Deer? (An exception is the Savage Model 99.) = 16.6. My guesstimate is that this load will generate about 9 ft. lbs. 350 Legend vs 450 Bushmaster. = 33.6.350 Legend, Win. I came up with a tentative recoil estimate that may or may not be accurate for the .350 Legend, 180 grain load, but it is the best I can do without verified powder charge data for the new cartridge. 243 vs 308 vs 7mm-08: Which Is Right For You? Ditto for AR15 platforms, whether complete rifles or uppers. I have the .50 Beowulf and am very pleased with the accuracy and knock down power. At the end I will summarize results, muse about rifle platforms and make some concluding remarks. hollow points. The big question for me is whether a 260gr load going 1,850 fps from a 12" barrel and producing 5,500 psi at the muzzle is a problem for the Ti-Rant 45. Pistol Length Upper Assemblies 5.56/.223; Rifle Length Upper Assemblies 5.56/.223; 50 Beowulf Upper 12.7X42 50 Cal. 450 Bushmaster vs 458 SOCOM vs 50 Beowulf: Battle Of The Big Bore AR Cartridges. The bottom line is that there's no question that the Ti-Rant 45 is safe with .450 Bushmaster subsonic loads since the pressure at the muzzle is less than a 230gr .45 ACP from a 5" barrel. figures for our comparison loads at the muzzle, 100 yards and at the 5 yard increment nearest to maximum point blank range (see below). SD affects penetration, as all other factors being equal (bullet construction, for example) the bullet with the highest sectional density will penetrate deepest. I, too, have lived and hunted only in areas where normal game hunting cartridges are legal, so I am also baffled by these regulations. Rubber meet road, because if there is anyone point in .450 Bushmaster vs .350 Legend battle where one wins out, it’s here. The other two arent. McAdams compares the 50 Beowulf, 450 Bushmaster, and 458 SOCOM in his article. This does not bode well for these bullets penetrating deeply on heavy bodied animals. Just curious. 180 grain PP: KPS at 100 yds. Chuck Hawks started by giving an overview of the cartridge itself in The Winchester .350 Legend. Here are the SD numbers for our comparison bullets, in descending order. The VSO Gun Channel is an educational resource of VSO Media LLC, a research and development/ Testing Evaluation firm. The Legend looks like a prayer answered for those who hunt in areas where rifles are restricted to short, straight-walled cartridges. All in all, the .350 Legend has potential as an effective hunting cartridge, especially when fed 180 grain bullets that have adequate sectional density for deer and hog hunting. I am a firm believer in sighting-in hunting rifles and loads for maximum point blank range. Killing power is the most difficult factor to estimate, as there is no definitive scientific formula to apply. That said having a caliber that has limited bullet selection and bullets that aren't easy to get locally can be a PITA. 250 grain FTX: KPS at 100 yds. lbs., respectively, in eight pound rifles. 180 grain PP: +2.9" (100), -3.0" (185), -15.7" (250), .500 Beowulf, Hdy. Differences Between 450 Bushmaster And 458 Socom Power. I have local deal available for either the .450 Bushmaster or the .50 Beowulf. I do not consider these to be Class 3 cartridges, KPS scores notwithstanding. If it's more of a novelty cool gun, well the bigger the better. A game animal hit somewhere other than in the vitals is not likely to go down cleanly, no matter the size, weight and impact energy of the bullet. It is very popular among whitetail hunters and will be around longer than 458 or 50 will be. Hornady BLACK 250 grain FTX - BC .210, .50 Beowulf load Unfortunately, the traditional lever rifle designs, with rear-locking bolts, cannot handle the .350 Legend cartridge, for the simple reason that its MAP is 55,000 psi, well above what most rear-locking lever designs were meant handle. The 180 grain Legend load does not generate the killing power (KPS) of the larger, heavier loads, but the Legend generates much lower recoil and so will be easier for most of us to shoot accurately. However, for those affected (or afflicted) by such regulations, practically any rifle cartridge is more useful than a shotgun slug." This is typical of medium velocity cartridges in general. The 16 inch barrel data are used here, along with .450 Bushmaster and .50 Beowulf data from 16-inch barrels, because 16 inches is the most prevalent barrel length for AR-15 rifles. The killing power analysis, below, sheds more light on this. (I base this on the far zero ranges of the loads, as detailed above.). = 22.6; KPS at 185 yds. Hornady 300 grain FTX - BC .200 (Handload, based on .50 Beowulf data in Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 10th edition.). Bullets from the three cartridges being evaluated, fired at a target within 200 yards, will go to ground by the time they fly 300 yards or less downrange. These large diameter, straight wall cartridges should not be sighted-in and used for shots at or beyond 200 yards, as the trajectory data, below, confirms. The size difference between .223 Rem. Unfortunately, many such systems have no correlation with reality at all. These are powerful loads, with 100 yard KPS values of 53.6 and 53.8 for the Beowulf and Bushmaster loads, respectively, while the SOCOM load has a 100 yard KPS of 58.7. Energy is an important component of killing power, as will be discussed below. The .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM have a .473″ rim diameter, which is the same as other popular cartridges like the .30-06, .308, and .270 Winchester. The KPS scores of the Beowulf and Bushmaster loads indicate that they are suitable for use against Class 3 game. Evaluating recoil of the .350 Legend is shaky right now, because there is no body of reloading data that can be consulted to get load powder charges, a necessary variable in recoil calculations. Something with power that I can hunt deer and pigs. ARCHIVED; AR-15 » AR Variants. Neophyte, small statured, and recoil adverse shooters would find the .350 Legend much more pleasant to shoot, so would shoot it better. The results are clear. Loads are listed in descending order of 100 yard KPS values. SimpliSafe is home security that is contract-free, easy-to-use, and customizable. Given the looping trajectories, a self-imposed range limit of about 150 to 165 yards, depending on the cartridge/load combination, would be better. .450 Bushmaster Vs .350 Legend Cost. case. All rights reserved. 5. … .458 SOCOM vs. .450 Bushmaster Differences. This is a safety benefit, for it lessens the chance of an errant bullet striking a person or property somewhere far down range. I have studied the non-proprietary, small and large caliber cartridges designed to work in the AR15 platform. 458 Socom can tackle the 600-grain, while 450 Bushmaster can handle half of this number. Winchester notes, "several other firearm manufacturers are gearing up" to produce rifles chambered in .350 Legend. If you're planning to shoot it alot, go for the caliber that has the cheapest component bullets. The first number for each load is its MPBR yardage, the second is the far zero yardage associated with the MPBR. I had the exact same question. The .45 and .50 caliber loads have SDs that fall short of the .200 benchmark. To summarize, the .350 Legend, 180 grain load, fits neatly between the Bushmaster and Beowulf loads in velocity, MPBR, and trajectory. AR-15 AK-47 Handgun Precision Rifles Armory Training Competitive Shooting General Outdoors Archery Hometown Industry. Shorter range shots improve the likelihood of placing a bullet in the right place. my reasoning is it can use the same bullets i keep here for the 45-70. the bushmaster uses 452 bullets if i recall correctly. I don't really have a specific use for the set up. The loads are listed in descending order of their MV. = 47.5; KPS at 190 yds. .50 Beowulf, Hdy. 4.6 out of 5 stars 21 product ratings. 300 grain FTX: +2.8" (100), -3.1" (175), -20.1" (250), .50 Beowulf, Hdy. For Class 2 game, a SD of .200 has long been considered about the minimum acceptable for medium range rifle cartridges. (I say this even though I have carried compact, short-action bolt rifles on the majority of my deer hunts.) However, I caution against making too much of this, given the submarginal sectional densities of the .45 and .50 caliber bullets. On the other hand, the .50 Beowulf has a .447″ rim diameter, which is the same as the 7.62x39mm cartridge used in the AK-47. 450 BUSHMASTER UPPER; 458 SOCOM Upper; 5.56 NATO 223 Wylde Upper. = 16.6; The results are clear. Chuck then commented that, "I have lived in the far west my entire life, so please forgive me if I find such detailed and restrictive regulations not only incomprehensible, but a huge over-reach of bureaucratic authority. The .450 Bushmaster is in the same class as a typical modern 45–70 load. in. I calculated the killing power of these loads at 100 yards, as most whitetail deer, blacktail deer and feral hogs are killed at 100 yards or less. 300 grain FTX: KPS at 100 yds. MartytW. Trajectories are rounded to one decimal place; yardage is noted in parentheses. This may be the only good reason for hunting regulations dictating short, straight wall cases with large caliber bullets. in., and .1964 sq. .450 Bushmaster This is the smallest of the thumpers, with a bullet diameter of .452". I have 6.8 spc and 7.62x39 uppers which worked well for hunting last year. Obviously, to kill cleanly, any hunting bullet must penetrate into the animal's vitals, so hunting bullet SD is important. Producing bolt action rifles in .350 Legend should be a snap. Velocity flattens trajectory and makes hitting easier as the range increases. However, if one were tempted to use these bullets on Class 3 or large Class 2 game, then potential poor penetration of low SD bullets becomes a real issue. The MPBR numbers say that this is an over-reach, for the 180 grain load, as well as the cartridges and loads with which it is compared. (in the foreground), and .50 Beowulf, .450 Bushmaster and .458 Socom (in the background) is apparent. Winchester has published some vague promotional material with numbers that suggest that the .350 Legend generates about 12 percent lower recoil than a .30-30. The abiding problem with medium and large bore bullets is that they must be quite heavy to have high sectional densities. Dittos for brass. Only a handful of them are any good for hunting, but the medium caliber .350 Legend may be one that prospers, not only in restricted cartridge areas, but in general. These are not included here because the 180 grain load is the best comparison against heavier bullets in the .45 and .50 caliber cartridges; I use one popular bullet weight in those cartridges, as follows. In doing so, I am debating / weighing the pros and cons of the 3 heaviest calibers available for the AR platform, those being the .50 Beowulf by Alexander Arms, the .450 Bushmaster (by Bushmaster, obviously) and, the .458 SOCOM. A longer, smaller diameter projectile penetrates better than a shorter, fatter projectile of the same weight and construction, which only makes sense. Results are in descending order of MPBR yardage. I wouldn't think there would be enough difference between the 3 to worry about. "It is my understanding that Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana have mandated that rifles shooting cartridges of at least .35 caliber with straight wall cases between 1.16 and 1.8 inches in length are now legal for use in what I believe Michigan calls the "limited firearms deer zone." The advantage of 50beo is, half inch holes. = 47.5; KPS at 190 yds. Winchester has also announced 150 and 160 grain hunting loads for the .350 Legend. Paper test with the a few .308 rounds, 30-06, 450 bm and .50 beowulf against 2,700 sheets of paper #capcustoms #capstaycustom #crtacticaldefense A well designed bolt rifle also carries and mounts well, but cycles slower than a lever gun. AR15 fanciers, long saddled with marginal deer cartridges, are likely to jump all over the cartridge. Last edited by zardoz; 04-20-2018 at 02:07 AM. I am looking at getting a new big bore upper for my AR15, either 450 bushmaster or 50 Beowulf. Copyright © 2000-2020 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Here are the loads I will evaluate and compare. lbs.) 6.5 Creedmoor Upper; 6.5 Grendel Upper; 6.8 SPC Upper; 7.62x39 Upper. Reason: spelling, and additional info 100,000 BC: stone tools. Remingtons coming out with 300 grain core loks that are exciting. = 40.0.450 Bushmaster, Hdy. The loads being compared are not clearly specified, which is why I say the information is vague. That's just my preference, having looked at both the 450 Bushmaster and 50 Beowulf a lot before finally deciding on the SOCOM. I won’t be shooting long range so shots are usually 50-75 yards avg. 6mm Creedmoor: Everything You Need To Know. I believe the .450 ammo would be easier to come by. When chambered for bigbore thumpers such as the .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf, the AR-15 is as effective a dangerous game-stalking tool as any other rifle ever devised. in., .1605 sq. Trajectory matters, because the flatter a bullet flies the easier it is to hit a target down range. To illustrate, the 180 grain, .357" diameter bullet (SD .202) barely meets the minimum SD .200 rule of thumb; compare that with a 120 grain, .284" (7mm) diameter bullet, with a SD of .213. CURRENTLY SOLD OUT. 50 and 458 have their own advantages. It uses a rebated rim cartridge case based on the .284 Win. 250 grain FTX: KPS at 100 yds. For instance, if the games are deers, the 450 is more than capable. Meanwhile, my limited experience with AR15s in the field is that they are unwieldy to carry and awkward to mount, but that may be just me.

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